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 Post subject: Re: [SPOILERS] UFC 111 - St. Pierre vs. Hardy Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:44 pm 
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PMBR wrote:
You're acting as if there's a huge difference between mentally and physically not being able to make the right decision for your own health? I go back to the Razak Al-Hassan case. Look what happened to him because he was too prideful to make the right decision. If GSP had broken Hardy's arm, you'd all be saying the same thing.

Just because you are conscious doesn't mean you can make the right decisions. Tim Sylvia would have kept fighting Frank Mir even after having his arm broken. Are you saying that Herb Dean was wrong for stopping that fight even though the champion at the time fully intended on continuing?



:lol:

are you serious or just acting the troll?

Look. The clue is in the word 'conciousness'

The Oxford English Dictionary wrote:
CONCIOUSNESS
the state of being conscious; awareness of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings

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 Post subject: Re: [SPOILERS] UFC 111 - St. Pierre vs. Hardy Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:57 pm 
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PS on the heel hook issue, Palhares did hold it in too long - but it was nowhere near as long as they made it out on the broadcast......Joe Rogan counted in seconds how long he held it.....during a slow mo replay... duh!

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 Post subject: Re: [SPOILERS] UFC 111 - St. Pierre vs. Hardy Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:04 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:28 pm
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If you think a RNC should be banned, based off of the description I gave of "not having enough time to tap out before real damage is done", then you don't understand the concept of a rear naked choke. At this point, you're just trying to start a fight.


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 Post subject: Re: [SPOILERS] UFC 111 - St. Pierre vs. Hardy Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:12 pm 
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PMBR wrote:
If you think a RNC should be banned, based off of the description I gave of "not having enough time to tap out before real damage is done", then you don't understand the concept of a rear naked choke. At this point, you're just trying to start a fight.



No, sorry if thats how you'#re gonna come with it.....I noticed that you avoided me calling YOU out for being a troll.

How can you possibly sit behind your keyboard and try and make a legitimate argument that someone in an incorrectly applied submission hold is no more able to make an intelligent decision about whether to continue than someone whos been knocked half unconcious?

Wake up!

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 Post subject: Re: [SPOILERS] UFC 111 - St. Pierre vs. Hardy Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:48 pm 
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Primarily I'm referring to the armbar.

Since you decide to play the fool on the heel hook issue and act as if I'm some clueless, bumbling fool, I've decided to call you out on being an asshole.


Quote:
A heel hook is a leg lock affecting multiple joints, and is applied by transversely twisting the foot either medially or laterally. The torsional force puts severe torque on the ankle, which in turn transfers torque to the knee. The heel hook is generally considered to be a very dangerous leg lock, with a high rate of injury, especially to ligaments in the knee. It was subsequently banned in many combat sports featuring other leg locks such as Brazilian jiu-jitsu[2] and Sambo[3]. The heel hook is however an allowed technique in some submission wrestling and mixed martial arts competitions.


Heel hooks are banned in a lot of competitions due to how dangerous they are. I am obviously not the only one who feels the same way.

Quote:
SMALL JOINT MANIPULATION IS NOT PERMITTED FOR TWO REASONS:

1. Damage to these joints can result in permanent impairment and career-ending loss of ability to effectively use the body part.
2. Due to the fragility of these joints, opponents are not given a sufficient opportunity to submit before the submission is fully executed and the damage is done.

THE VERY SAME RATIONALE APPLIES TO THE HEEL HOOK.

When a heel hook is applied, by the time the opponent feels the pain associated with the move and taps, it is quite likely that his knee and its ligaments have already been destroyed. The heel hook stands out among large joint submissions as one that is not only the most damaging, but one that provides the least opportunity to submit before it is executed to completion.

With that said, I would be willing to bet that if you surveyed professional fighters, more would prefer to punched or kicked in the head while unconscious than to have a heel hook performed to completion on them.

Every time a heel hook is applied and completed, the receiver is out for a minimum of six months and is almost guaranteed to return to the cage a reduced version of his former self. Very few athletes in any sport who require knee reconstruction due to torn ligaments will return and perform at 100% of their pre-injury level.

While the heel hook is an impressive submission and everybody loves clips like Ryo Chonan vs. Anderson Silva, is the potential drama provided by this one move worth the risk of the sport’s top stars being out for extended periods of recovery and possibly forced into retirement with a career-threatening injury? The move is literally designed to tear apart the ligaments of the knee, and is applied in such a manner that there is little opportunity to submit before the damage is done.

And don’t get me wrong. I greatly admire the legacy of Ken Shamrock, and it would be a slight source of sadness to see one of his signature moves go by the wayside, given his contributions to the rise of mixed martial arts. But at the same time, Royce Gracie employed headbutts and fought in a gi, both of which are now illegal with virtually no complaint from anyone.

I, for one, am willing to forego the (often grotesque) visuals of the heel hook and suffer the knowledge that the fighters are employing one less (minor) combat skill in order to ensure that my favorite fighters are competing longer and with the same knee ligaments (and agility) they were given at birth.

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 Post subject: Re: [SPOILERS] UFC 111 - St. Pierre vs. Hardy Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:52 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:28 pm
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subvertbeats wrote:
PMBR wrote:
You're acting as if there's a huge difference between mentally and physically not being able to make the right decision for your own health? I go back to the Razak Al-Hassan case. Look what happened to him because he was too prideful to make the right decision. If GSP had broken Hardy's arm, you'd all be saying the same thing.

Just because you are conscious doesn't mean you can make the right decisions. Tim Sylvia would have kept fighting Frank Mir even after having his arm broken. Are you saying that Herb Dean was wrong for stopping that fight even though the champion at the time fully intended on continuing?



:lol:

are you serious or just acting the troll?

Look. The clue is in the word 'conciousness'

The Oxford English Dictionary wrote:
CONCIOUSNESS
the state of being conscious; awareness of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings


I really can't help it that you are a fool. Apparently, you are claiming that Tim Sylvia wasn't conscious when his arm was broken. Are you claiming that Razak Al-Hassan was napping down by the pond? They were aware of their sensations and thoughts, but clearly not making decisions with their own health in mind. Congratulations you're tough... but you have a broken arm.

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 Post subject: Re: [SPOILERS] UFC 111 - St. Pierre vs. Hardy Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:30 am 
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First of all stop calling each other names, this is a normal discussion between adults and thus act like one please.

All sports have their faults and injuries. Sure you can try to reduce them by creating rules but MMA is about fighting and you can be submitted in a way that can be bad for your career but you can also be hit by someone that forces you out of the game for a long time or maybe forever.

Especially in extreme sports like this you know that you have a risk. It is however up to the fighter(s), referee, ring doctor and even the corner to decide how far they can let it go.

In football it also happens often that a leg, knee, ankle etc gets hurt/broken. Do we then have to say no more tackles or blocks? The answer is no, but when a tackle is made that can cause an injury or did cause an injury then that player should get suspended.

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 Post subject: Re: [SPOILERS] UFC 111 - St. Pierre vs. Hardy Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:37 am 
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Thanks Foxy, but Im dealing with this.

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 Post subject: Re: [SPOILERS] UFC 111 - St. Pierre vs. Hardy Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:50 am 
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PMBR wrote:
Primarily I'm referring to the armbar.

Since you decide to play the fool on the heel hook issue and act as if I'm some clueless, bumbling fool, I've decided to call you out on being an asshole.


I think you're being extremely over sensitive. What I wrote above was taking the mickey out of Joe Rogan doing a count in (realtime) seconds over a slo-mo replay.

And I havent acted as if you're a clueless bumbling fool - those are your words not mine.

What I have done is disagreed completely with your opinion that

a) A fighter who is in an incorrectly applied submission hold with the ability to escape said hold is no more capable of making an intelligent decision about whether to continue than a fighter who has been knocked half unconscious by a salvo of head blows.

and

b) based on your argument for a) the ref shouldve have stopped the Hardy fight.

I havent made any personal attacks on you.
What I have done is suggest that because you dont seem to be able to see the difference in mental state and ability for clarity of thought and judgement between a fighter in a submission hold and a fighter half unconscious, that you were merely posting for forum drama or to start a war of words on here.
If you find me a couple more people who agree with a and b above then perhaps Ill change my mind. Until then my opinion remains the same.

I remind you I havent made any personal insults.

But I am counting yours.

One.

PMBR wrote:
subvertbeats wrote:
are you serious or just acting the troll?

Look. The clue is in the word 'conciousness'

The Oxford English Dictionary wrote:
CONCIOUSNESS
the state of being conscious; awareness of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings


I really can't help it that you are a fool. Apparently, you are claiming that Tim Sylvia wasn't conscious when his arm was broken. Are you claiming that Razak Al-Hassan was napping down by the pond? They were aware of their sensations and thoughts, but clearly not making decisions with their own health in mind. Congratulations you're tough... but you have a broken arm.


No, Im claiming that they were idiots who made a conscious decision.
A foolish decision maybe, but still a conscious decision.
You are arguing that fighters cannot be trusted with that decision.
Do you realise the implications of that argument?

And Im still counting.

Thats two.

One more and you will be banned - its not only me who wont tolerate that kind of attitude here.

You also called someone 'unintelligent' on Page 1 of this thread because they disagreed with your opinions.

I strongly suggest you wind your neck in and be more respectful to fellow posters.

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 Post subject: Re: [SPOILERS] UFC 111 - St. Pierre vs. Hardy Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:38 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:00 pm
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@PMBR:

If Kevin Mulhall stopped that GSP vs. Hardy title fight without the fighter tapping, or him being injured the crowd would of went crazy and I would want him sacked. Hardy's arm was only extended for about 5 seconds during the arm-bar and the Kimura as mentioned earlier was sloppy.

Some fighters have high resistance to pain and excellent flexibility in their joints (BJ Penn for example).

IMO if the fighter doesn’t tap, you should snap their limb.

Its up to the referee to stop the fight when the fighter CANT defend themselves. If the fighters arm is still intact they ARE able to defend themselves. Also it opens up a bag of worms. How will referees know when a fighter is refusing to tap, its just bad technique being applied or the fighter has a higher than normal pain resistance.

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